Comments on: gender and the emerging church http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/ when faith like a child isn't enough Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:49:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.1 by: Psalmist in Texas http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-283 Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:09:41 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-283 Jenny, I am a Christian in a mainline denomination, and I'd just like to say that you make incredibly good sense. I suspect one reason there's such a dearth of female leadership in the Emergent/ing Church phenomenon is that it comes largely out of the evangelical free church bodies, which don't ordain women or even permit much "mixed" leadership for laywomen. Evangelical Pentecostals (yes, there are such Christians), as well as mainline Protestants, have been saying and doing many of the same things as the Emergents, but while remaining within their denominational affiliations and even their congregations. They tend not to get as much press. And with them (us), women in leadership is largely a non-issue because it's so common. There are still issues of parity, but we've accepted both the principle and the practice of women leading. The problem may be with some evangelicals thinking that non-evangelicals aren't "real" Christians. (We are, but don't tell them that!) It's gotta be their way or the highway, and their way, the women still pretty much mind the kitchen and little else. I agree with your (and a couple of commenters') critique of so many preachers' denigration of the human earthly experience. As I understand Jesus, he embraced the experience; his Jewish tradition called the created world "good" and the human creature "very good." This is at odds with the Greek notion that anything to do with the world or the body was evil and only the spirit was good. Anyway, I think it's rather foolish of preachers to carry on about the big bad world and dirty, evil humans. I believe our deeds may well be evil, or good, but to call the created order itself evil is to make God a liar. I try not to do that. ;) Perhaps it will encourage you to know that there are actual Christian feminists who take your concerns very seriously; in fact, they're our concerns, too. Jenny, I am a Christian in a mainline denomination, and I’d just like to say that you make incredibly good sense. I suspect one reason there’s such a dearth of female leadership in the Emergent/ing Church phenomenon is that it comes largely out of the evangelical free church bodies, which don’t ordain women or even permit much “mixed” leadership for laywomen. Evangelical Pentecostals (yes, there are such Christians), as well as mainline Protestants, have been saying and doing many of the same things as the Emergents, but while remaining within their denominational affiliations and even their congregations. They tend not to get as much press. And with them (us), women in leadership is largely a non-issue because it’s so common. There are still issues of parity, but we’ve accepted both the principle and the practice of women leading. The problem may be with some evangelicals thinking that non-evangelicals aren’t “real” Christians. (We are, but don’t tell them that!) It’s gotta be their way or the highway, and their way, the women still pretty much mind the kitchen and little else.

I agree with your (and a couple of commenters’) critique of so many preachers’ denigration of the human earthly experience. As I understand Jesus, he embraced the experience; his Jewish tradition called the created world “good” and the human creature “very good.” This is at odds with the Greek notion that anything to do with the world or the body was evil and only the spirit was good. Anyway, I think it’s rather foolish of preachers to carry on about the big bad world and dirty, evil humans. I believe our deeds may well be evil, or good, but to call the created order itself evil is to make God a liar. I try not to do that. ;)

Perhaps it will encourage you to know that there are actual Christian feminists who take your concerns very seriously; in fact, they’re our concerns, too.

]]> by: Jenny http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-281 Tue, 11 Jul 2006 02:15:43 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-281 Layne, thanks so much for commenting. Your experience is a great illustration. The fact that you came from a more traditional church with women leaders is also interesting. It makes me think of how, in my evangelical past, I would have looked at communities like, say, the Episcopalians and said to myself, "Woah, like, they're wearing robes and carrying gold cups and shit. Why are they so old-fashioned?" When of course some of the most gender progressive churches fall under the Episcopalian umbrella (I realize that not all Episcopalians are as progressive) and of course they just elected a woman leader of the whole damn show, which is more than the Emergent crowd has done (though, of course, they would never "elect" anyone because they are not an "organization" but a "conversation.") On another tack, the speaker's comment about the creepiness of childbirth seems to also line up with the old Evangelical tendency to denigrate all natural "worldly" things. I'm pretty sure I've heard a sermon just like that one, where the speaker goes into great detail to extoll the virtues of a divine figure who would become just like gross, disgusting humans -- a worldview problematic in its implications on how humans should view each other and the planet on which we live. Jax -- thanks for reading and commenting! Layne, thanks so much for commenting. Your experience is a great illustration. The fact that you came from a more traditional church with women leaders is also interesting. It makes me think of how, in my evangelical past, I would have looked at communities like, say, the Episcopalians and said to myself, “Woah, like, they’re wearing robes and carrying gold cups and shit. Why are they so old-fashioned?” When of course some of the most gender progressive churches fall under the Episcopalian umbrella (I realize that not all Episcopalians are as progressive) and of course they just elected a woman leader of the whole damn show, which is more than the Emergent crowd has done (though, of course, they would never “elect” anyone because they are not an “organization” but a “conversation.”)

On another tack, the speaker’s comment about the creepiness of childbirth seems to also line up with the old Evangelical tendency to denigrate all natural “worldly” things. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard a sermon just like that one, where the speaker goes into great detail to extoll the virtues of a divine figure who would become just like gross, disgusting humans — a worldview problematic in its implications on how humans should view each other and the planet on which we live.

Jax — thanks for reading and commenting!

]]> by: Layne http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-280 Tue, 11 Jul 2006 00:12:56 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-280 I just found your site through the feminist carnival and really appreciate what you have to say here, in part because I found my experience with emergent church alienating for the reasons you describe. I had been looking for a church in a new town when some friends invited me to a self-identified emergent church, which seemed at first really creative and interesting. I was surprised to find that the 3 church leaders were all men, having come from a more traditional church led by women, but gave it a few chances. However, the experiment ended when I walked out of their Christmas service during a sermon about childbirth, in which the speaker told us that childbirth was "really creepy," and he felt really lucky that Jesus had been willing to be born that way. What?? There were pregnant women in the congregation, which, I believe like that most emergent churches, was made up mostly of people in their 20's. I was so shocked and upset--just another way women in Christian churches are "othered," even in supposedly progressive congregations. Sorry for the long comment, but I was so glad to see that I wasn't alone in this one! Thanks also for your thoughts on pronouns. I think incorporating "God" in place of "he" in every instance is such an appropriate and even aesthetically pleasing way to go. I just found your site through the feminist carnival and really appreciate what you have to say here, in part because I found my experience with emergent church alienating for the reasons you describe.
I had been looking for a church in a new town when some friends invited me to a self-identified emergent church, which seemed at first really creative and interesting. I was surprised to find that the 3 church leaders were all men, having come from a more traditional church led by women, but gave it a few chances. However, the experiment ended when I walked out of their Christmas service during a sermon about childbirth, in which the speaker told us that childbirth was “really creepy,” and he felt really lucky that Jesus had been willing to be born that way. What?? There were pregnant women in the congregation, which, I believe like that most emergent churches, was made up mostly of people in their 20’s. I was so shocked and upset–just another way women in Christian churches are “othered,” even in supposedly progressive congregations.
Sorry for the long comment, but I was so glad to see that I wasn’t alone in this one! Thanks also for your thoughts on pronouns. I think incorporating “God” in place of “he” in every instance is such an appropriate and even aesthetically pleasing way to go.

]]> by: Jax http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-276 Sat, 08 Jul 2006 19:46:35 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-276 you got linked from the carnival, I'm guessing you're having a few more readers pass through. I'm not christian either, but I thought this was a fascinating post. you got linked from the carnival, I’m guessing you’re having a few more readers pass through.

I’m not christian either, but I thought this was a fascinating post.

]]> by: SteveC http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-275 Sat, 08 Jul 2006 07:55:43 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-275 <i>Dude, I’m pretty sure you can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in Jesus.</i> Looks like that upcoming podcast just got a lot more interesting.... Dude, I’m pretty sure you can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in Jesus.

Looks like that upcoming podcast just got a lot more interesting….

]]> by: Jenny http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-265 Wed, 05 Jul 2006 01:18:50 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-265 You all are too kind. <i>Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers. >>>hmmmm. i may disagree on both points actually.</i> Dude, I'm pretty sure you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in Jesus. Ninja: I think you're right on re: privilege. You all are too kind.

Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers.

>>>hmmmm. i may disagree on both points actually.

Dude, I’m pretty sure you can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in Jesus.

Ninja:

I think you’re right on re: privilege.

]]> by: Dylan http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-260 Mon, 03 Jul 2006 20:55:06 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-260 <i>I just finished reading the best one I know.</i> hear hear, steve! <i>Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers.</i> hmmmm. i may disagree on both points actually. I just finished reading the best one I know.
hear hear, steve!

Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers.
hmmmm. i may disagree on both points actually.

]]> by: ninjanun http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-258 Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:17:32 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-258 Sorry for all my misspelling in that last post. I never won any spelling bees, and I'm too lazy and bleary-eyed at this time of the morning (especially before coffee) to spell-check. :) Sorry for all my misspelling in that last post. I never won any spelling bees, and I’m too lazy and bleary-eyed at this time of the morning (especially before coffee) to spell-check. :)

]]> by: ninjanun http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-257 Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:16:03 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-257 I think part of the problem isn't just the gender issue, but, as you briefly touched on, the <b>privilege</b> issue. I think the main reason there aren't more women in church leadership and/or writing theological treatises (even in emergent/ing or other progressive forms of church) is because women have never been encouraged to persue the field, and, on the whole, lack the societal support to do so. Much like any race/gender who is not top dog in society (if you're not white, male, or middle-to-upper-class), you're less likely to receive the education necessary to be a theological/intellectual/spiritual leader in a faith community. After all, how many asian/black/hispanic leaders (male or female) have written theological books on par with Tony Jones and Brian McLaren? For that matter, how many of the current crop of white male leaders did NOT come out of (relatively) privileged backgrounds? I think, like you mentioned, it's not so much intentional, as it's just being blind to their own privileged place in society and the faith community, and not understanding how much of a struggle it may be to overcome these things when you DON'T grow up with society's or the faith community's official stamp of approval on your forehead. It's time they were made aware of this disparity, and actively work to resolve it through their books, from the pulpit, and systematically. I think part of the problem isn’t just the gender issue, but, as you briefly touched on, the privilege issue. I think the main reason there aren’t more women in church leadership and/or writing theological treatises (even in emergent/ing or other progressive forms of church) is because women have never been encouraged to persue the field, and, on the whole, lack the societal support to do so. Much like any race/gender who is not top dog in society (if you’re not white, male, or middle-to-upper-class), you’re less likely to receive the education necessary to be a theological/intellectual/spiritual leader in a faith community. After all, how many asian/black/hispanic leaders (male or female) have written theological books on par with Tony Jones and Brian McLaren? For that matter, how many of the current crop of white male leaders did NOT come out of (relatively) privileged backgrounds?

I think, like you mentioned, it’s not so much intentional, as it’s just being blind to their own privileged place in society and the faith community, and not understanding how much of a struggle it may be to overcome these things when you DON’T grow up with society’s or the faith community’s official stamp of approval on your forehead. It’s time they were made aware of this disparity, and actively work to resolve it through their books, from the pulpit, and systematically.

]]> by: Jenny http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-256 Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:04:11 +0000 http://www.steeplesandpeople.com/blog/2006/07/02/gender-and-the-emerging-church/#comment-256 That is so kind of you to say, Steve. Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers. That is so kind of you to say, Steve. Would that I were a) actually a Christian and b) not just a blogger writing to, like, five readers.

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