First, for the record, I’m a 21 year retired veteran of the US military having served in both the Army and Air Force, and am a combat veteran of Operations Desert Shield and Storm. I was raised Reform/Conservative Jewish, was pounded at every opportunity by people of every denomination who insisted I needed to “find Jesus” their way, eventually “made a profession of faith” through the outreach of the Independent Baptists (indie-fundies if you will, an organization I will avoid at all cost now), was a volunteer with San Francisco, CA-based “Jews for Jesus”, and was a “children’s church pastor” (not ordained, sort of an apprentice if you will), taught adult clases in Germany and Korea in my travels… in other words I’m not stranger to the system

Opinions are like rectal orifices. Most everyone has one, and most of them stink. I bailed out of the religio-political thing some years ago when I realized just that. While it’s not a “scientific” fact, there may be something to that old saying “if you do something over and over again and expect different results, that’s insanity”. Religion and politics have been going on for over 10,00 years of recorded history and it hasn’t fixed anything. Back in the beginning of this blog words like “persuasion”, and “rhetoric” came up which was the subject to begin with. And the reference to Hitler and NAZI Germany too. A perfect example of rhetoric and persuasion mixed with strong-arm tactics, power in the worst hands, and “might makes right - until someone with bigger guns, better funding, more troops, atomic weapons, and a different opinion comes along”.

Government in action, soldiers just “doing their job”, people being convinced of absurdities when they have no hope in anything so far and the most persuasive, charismatic person comes along with a “good idea”, yada yada yada.

Bottom line is they were wrong in every sense of the word, in my humble opinion, and in the opinions of most of the world so it would seem. Not all, Neo-Nazis, for example, but 99% we’ll say. Yet there were those who were convinced. Not all, but enough. Enough to know that if you want to live another day you may have to conform. In the religious organizations, whiole Roman Catholics aren’t conducting Inquisitions anymore you still will catch hell in religion if you dare to be different, or at least live outside the “rules”. I do, that’s why i don’t play “church” anymore at all.

So what’s the difference when a “pastor” motivates a lemming-audience to move his way? With little thought most religious organization members (I reserve the word church for those who are truely following the teachings of Y’shua, not “religion”) blindly suck up and swallow whatever they are fed. If it makes no sense they just disregard it and go on and they are called “fence straddlers”. Those who buy into it and act upon it are “fundamentalists” in the literal use of the word, the “hard core” of their organizations. And then there are the majority that can’t get behind the non-sense and they are the ones, who eventually go over the side, quit the stupidity and are the “excommunicated”, the “backsliders”, the “lost all over again” or “never was really saved to begin with” (depending on your doctrine), or whatever the term du juor is. I’ve been away from it for a while.

There will always be the hard-asses versus the “liberals” depending on who is ranting from the pulpit. It’s all opinion and referencing back to the subject, it’s about persuasion and convincing and bending herts and minds, and I for one, will not be manipulated. Yes I know to be an American citizen is to be manipulated. Taxes, laws concerning what I can and can’t do in the privacy of my own home, left versus right… but the point is, FAITH is not “wishful thinking”. It’s being convinced based on a fact.

There’s no such thing as “blind faith”. That’s guesswork, gambling, wishful thinking”. HOPE is not wishful thinking either. It’s an expectation based on trust. For example, I received a promise and I am waiting for that promise to be fulfilled because I am TRUSTING in the one that made the promise because, based on their past performance, they can be trusted to do what they promised. THAT is FAITH and HOPE.

As for me, I believe in a Creator God if only because, for now, it explains our origins better than “chance”. And I believe this God (not he or she but rather a spirit with the best attributes of both who is able to give “gender” to people) knows this universe down to the sub-atomic level. This God is all-knowing, not by learing, but rather by a complete understanding of the physics of the universe as God created them. And God knows us at the sub-atomic level, every chemical interaction, every synapse in the nervous system, every quark, muon, and electron. And God’s perfect plan is agapé, perfect unselfish love. Not laws, not rules, not conditions in order to be accepted. No legislature can overrule agapé-love.

That’s the mind of God, that’s what God taught us if we believe that the spirit/mind of God inhabitied a human body for three decades and left us a working example of how God thinks and acts and what we should try to rise to. Then, in death and resurrection, reset the “Adam error” for the WHOLE world, showed that death is not the end and has been defeated, gave us something to look forward to, and opened the way for a relationship with this Creator God and an opportunity to learn from the example left for us. No religion required.

I guess my attempts at encouraging you towards more action and less talking just fell on deaf eyes. But I have absolutely no interest in antagonizing you or discouraging you from you quest for knowledge (though you seem to know an aweful lot already).

So good times to you, and may your hospitality serve you well.

good bye

Love your blog!

How about I start giving you shoutouts when you stop spouting platitudes? I guess I just broke my own rule, there. But seriously, pal — you’re not saying anything I haven’t heard before and you’re not even saying it in a new and exciting way (that is with a little RHETORICAL flair!).

Ha Kohen:

But… as insiders, because all things must be interpreted, this means that God is no more subjectively perceived than is: taste, gravity, smell, time or anything else for that matter. Therefore, if perception cannot be a reason for belief in God then it also cannot be a reason for disbelief in God, because disbelief would also be subjectively perceived.

I like this line of reasoning. But where does that leave us? Taste, smell, gravity, and time at least have a baseline the vast majority of humanity can agree upon. Though taste and smell are in a different category than time and gravity — taste and smell are modes of perception rather than things to be perceived. (They’re also concepts, I realize and therefore partially in the abstract as everything eventually is.) But time and gravity why is it that the vast, vast majority of us agree that when you drop a ball it will fall to the ground? And while ideas about time vary from culture to culture, we’ve all developed a linear structure to our lives and thinking. But there’s no similar consensus on the divine.

Pete, thanks for your comment.

Paul — I’ll get to you later, right now I have to get ready for work!

Personally, I’m not much into rhetoric that persuades as much as storytelling that reveals. Ads and politicians and media and what not pummel us with rhetoric all day long. Some of it is legit, but most is noise. Why should the Church join in all that noise — browbeating the unwilling into something that in the end analysis can only be experienced?

Every artist knows that rhetoric doesn’t move anyone to tears, doesn’t profoundly shift their consciousness or commitment. Artists create symbols, mine metaphors, root around in the dirt of human experience, tell stories and literally transform the world by introducing new authentic persepectives.

Faith without reason is superstition, so a big shout out to the philosophers and theologians. But they can only provide a reasonable framework for the truth that profound experiences teach.

Rhetoric opens the door, but storytelling turns on the light. Churches that try and corral attendees into the straight and narrow with rhetoric of any kind — preaching, powerpoint, programs, whatever — are immediately doomed to irrelevance. Church that reveals, tells the truth, will remain vital and critical to spiritual survival, no matter what the form.

I like and recommend these Revelators: Sara Miles (Take This Bread), Frederick Buechner (Telling Secrets, Wishful Thinking), Annie Dillard (Teaching A Stone To Talk), Barbara Taylor Brown (Leaving Church), Anne Lamott (Traveling Mercies, Grace Eventually). Stunning, tear-inducing and recklessly Godly — all of them.

In any case, thx for letting me add to your comments. You’ve been a gracious host… I found this site via Stupid Church People via Scott Williams (http://scott.club365.net).

Although the existence of objective reality is quite easy to prove in some instances, this is not always the case. For example: a group of people might begin driving down the highway on their way to one place only to find that they were heading in the opposite direction. The vehicles’ internal compass could have been off, the sings on the highway may have been vague or gone unnoticed and the driver and passengers might have earnestly believed the course of their journey to be the correct one, but that perception didn’t make it so. Perception is not reality. Perception is merely how we interpret stimuli and it is very often wrong and is even deadly in many cases. Objective reality does exist and in some cases can easily be demonstrated. (Though this gets quite complicated by the fact that subjectivity can only be viewed by those outside the erroneous perspective; such as a friend who sees the car heading in the wrong direction. Or it could even be seen as objective by the individuals themselves at a later time when the objective reality of the situation catches up to them; such as arriving in the wrong location.)

The more poignant question is – can we or can we not do what Descartes attempted to do in applying knowledge of objective reality to what Christians already admit to being a transcendent God. Although objective reality exists, can we ever (as participants rather than observers i.e. before death) really perceive God objectively? This is where those of us in the Christian community should simply answer “No, we cannot”. But… as insiders, because all things must be interpreted, this means that God is no more subjectively perceived than is: taste, gravity, smell, time or anything else for that matter. Therefore, if perception cannot be a reason for belief in God then it also cannot be a reason for disbelief in God, because disbelief would also be subjectively perceived.

Enough silliness, I would like to address you question/statement. Though I do think I attempted to explain this earlier, or maybe it was at SCP, or maybe I just wasn’t making any sense… The obvious response to your question: “Is an objective reality beneath…” would be that perseption/perspective Is reality. That is to say, each and every one of us must seek our own truth and validate it to ourselves. I think that as soon as we begin trading our ‘rightness’ with that of others, we have already invalidated our own truth. This does not mean we should question, examine, probe and study any and everything, but at the end of the day, it is our image in the mirror that must say to us: “Yes, I’m with you on this.” Unfortunatly this is one of the many flaws of the christian movement. People get lulled into a mutual affirmation of ‘faith’, and stop checking themsleves on the inside. This same phenomenon can be found outside of the church as well… environmental movements, politics, sports…not that any of these are fake or false in and of them selves, but sadly full of people who have sold out to a mass movement, instead of a personal conviction. Truth is what you make of it. If for you truth is what other likeminded individuals around you are are confirming, then who am I to judge that (and I’m not accusing you of that…just trying to make a point)? My only reservation with that stance, is that your base is no longer within in yourself, but the movement/idea/belief…etc.

This leads directly into your comments to Bastard Bob (is that like the white version of O.D.B.? just curious…;). There was a long period in my life when I was just tearing my self appart regarding the whole “is it my will?” or “is it God’s will?” issue. A good friend of mine finally put it to me like this. Since God created us, and is infact IN us (not just the believers…omnipresence, kinda deep if you think about it!!), he also designed us with our own unique talents/visions/desires. Along with that, we are in relationship with him, and therefore make decisions that are mututally beneficial to the relationship. This does not necessarily mean a set of old testament rules like some kind of Charlet Heston movie, but much more like any meaningful relationship you currently have. Like for example a family memeber or loved one. If you have that relationships best interrest in mind, you will make descisions that will hopefully not hurt or destroy that relationship/person. You do not do this because it’s in a contractual agreement, or forced rule, but because you love that person. So too is it with God. We make descesions that will hopefully streangthen our relationship to him (this of course based on the one and only thing he really ever wants from us: love, not blind obediance, religious tradition, or false worship). So, it woul look something like this. If I am in the decision making process of an upcoming choice, I examine my motivations (are they fueled by love and compassion?) and whether they the true desire of my heart (not tainted by the opinions or misdirection of others). Then ultimately i just go for it. Now, if you are geniuinely interrested in the health and future of your relationship with God, than you will know wether or not he was in mind while you were walking through your choices.

As you accuratly pointed out, those who simply hand the whole thing over to God, are not really communicating with their relational partner, and are therefore not making sound decisions (or not making decisions at all!). If on the other hand, you are simply leaving God out of your decision making process all together, than you will never really know how his will (the streangth of your relationship) plays in to all of this.

That is why ealier on I kept on harping on my point of: “you must walk it, to truely understand it.” I really hope I’ve made sense in all of this. I apologize for the leangth…but you did ask the question. But most importantly, I want to make clear that none of this is an attack or judgement directed at you…but simply truths that I’ve come to except and understand for MYy life…which is all anyone can ever do.

But… can anything really be untainted by both presentation and perception?

Short answer: no. And that’s kind of my point. It’s beginning to look like what I want here are answers on the nature of reality. i.e. does reality exist or is reality subjective? And, along that same line, is truth Truth or is it too subjective (Christians, I would be most gratified if you refrained from commenting “Yes, Truth exists because the Bible says so.” Thank you.)

All communication is mediated by perception and persuasion. I feel confident in making that statement. But to me, the question that remains is whether or not there is an objective reality beneath that.

Bastard Bob:

That’s always the concern with following “God’s will” when God “speaks” to us. Though I no longer ascribe such feelings to God, I personally go with my gut feeling on things (Stephen Colbert has taught me so much) on many occasions (in terms of what job I should take, what trips I should go on — things of more consequence than “What shall I have for lunch?” but I suppose not by much in the cosmic scheme). I might even entertain the idea of fate and the idea of things happening as they’re supposed to. But I think there are some serious implications of making decisions based on the will of a divine being where that being does not communicate in a physical sense with you.

I think many of us have witnessed scenarios like the one you did, Bob. And the people who believe God speaks to them believe it. I think there’s a certain culture that emerges in evangelical circles, though, where people submit their will to God as a way of maybe abdicating personal responsibility in decisions like the example you wrote of.